[PM]

explosive power, we all work hard on developing this type of power. my question is: martial arts related plyometrics - what kind of exercises you do guys?
_________________
Pavel Macek

Lam Ga Hung Kyun 林家洪拳

www.lghk.org

[Asmo]

Explosive power, that's the same as saying properly developped ging Pavel? And is plyometrics just a part of developing that ging?

I'm not so into the scientific names and thus knowing what lin gung belongs to plyometrics but for my own training, repeating of 1-2 techniques fast for numerous times (like the 6 ging as they make up of very different types of moves). Also I found that doing them with weights, like holding metal cylinders, wristweights, etc. will also help to add speed. But I don't really know if this falls under plyometrics.

Also doing forms with rings seems to have sped up my movements, as well as add power to them.

Its a bit hard to isolate for myself which exercises specifically added to increasing speed as I have a weekly rhythm of training sessions where I do different lin gung exercises. One side of me says, yeah, it is cool to dive into science and probably make a more effective training schedule, but the other side is saying, hey I progress, enjoy myself, and my body is telling me it is enjoying the way I train now, so why should I

Looking forward to see input from others as always.
_________________
Pain is weakness leaving the body.
Don't mind me, whatever I think I know today might be entirely different tomorrow!

[PM]

[Yogicmotion]

Good subject! My personal kung fu workouts have changed a quite bit.

Is this what you are talking about Pavel?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnWjl3giKJU

I have moved away from the traditional routine. I found that for my body, that the warm ups were just not enough to get me loose and the static stances while made my legs very strong, it made me to stiff in the hips. I personally needed some else to my workout to make my sets stronger.

I will usually start with a warm up routine like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-DOQbBqEyQ

after this I'll add some kind of push up/mountain climber combo. Then, I'll go to knee, hip, shoulder circles, light active stretching of the legs and hips.

This usually takes about 15 minutes or so and I ready for forms. I'll usually do each of the hand sets I know and maybe a Darn do. If I have partner to workout with I'll two man sets and sparing drills.

After sets, I'll do a challenging set of abs and end with long held leg and hips stretching.

It usually takes between 75-90 minutes for everything. I get an intense workout that is good on my back and kness and leaves me fresh and full of Chi.

So how have you changed your workouts Pavel? I am curious to see how you have developed since I saw you last.

[PM]

hello brother,

yes, this is exactly what i have in mind (the first video)

well, the emphasis is on application and strengthening/conditioning. we have 2 hours lessons:

5 minutes warm-up (more than enough, we need to be fresh for developing other skills)
5 minutes go through 8 basic stances for warm up
10 minutes jaat ma (stance training)
---
main programme
---
10-20 minutes of additional strengthening/conditioning
10 minutes of da saam sing
5 minutes of active contract/relax stretching

the main programe is always focused either at:

a) drills ("shadow boxing", pads, kicking shields, heavy bag etc., including breakfalls, footwork, body work, kicks, strikes, takedowns and holds/locks), conditioning

or

b) sets (whole ses, sequences, for power, for speed etc.)

or

c) application drills (saan sau, sparring drills, saan da)

or

d) sparring sets (whole sets, sequences, variations... )

some students have special programme - ketlebells, barbell, shins conditioning, fists conditioning, tiger claw skill... each skill or type of power has its own protocole of training, so i addres it in the lessons (maximal power, explosive power, power endurance... )

on friday i lead a special saan da class just for couple of student,s on weekends i teach seminars for out of town students.

in my routine i concentrate on stance training, barbell (deadlift and such), kettlebells, bodyweight conditioning (pull ups, one arm push ups, one legged squats... ), heavy bag, iron palm and iron thread set. no bodybulding routines though, just for pure power, especialy maximal, explosie and endurance. i have special cyclical programme for other sets and weapons.

many details of course, but this is basically it. i always update the programme in January and September on purpose to have some "fresh air". i have also devised a special home proramme f my students/out of town students/foreign students

this is basically it

2 notes:

Chinese usually do not do any specific and long warm up - and there is a scientifical reason for that. we need to be fresh for working on skills like maximal power or explosive power.

similar thing goes for stretching - it is needed of course, but just for a certain degree and certain type. Hung Kyun player needs different flexibility than a Northern Shaolin guy. more is not always needed and better.

i recommend to read books like Supertraining by Mel Siff
_________________
Pavel Macek

Lam Ga Hung Kyun 林家洪拳

www.lghk.org

[Yogicmotion]

You know I get the "traditional" approach. This is why I am not traditional practitioner.

I still spar from time to time, but developing combat skill is not really a focus of mine anymore. I have been in more then enough fights in my time and don't really care to get in any more.

So the focus of my practice has changed. Personally, my kung fu practice is now about health.

For my body, I needed to change things. Taking a look around the most common injuries I see in the hung style are in the knees and lower back. The same happened to me. I really fucked up my back during that tournament in 2000.

The rehab I went through made me take apart my workout routine. I needed some more physical conditioning. I'm also not 21 anymore. My body just needs a different type of routine now.

The really cool thing about the Hung system is that it is an INTENSE physical workout. I don't think I could ever omit it from my weekly workout routine.

[Yogicmotion]

Oh forgot to say I have read the book you suggested.

I return I suggest "How to eat move and be health" by Paul Chek. Paul is the man. He has a TON of stuff on youtube, his focus is rehab and high performance athletics. Bit of a jack ass though. But very good at what he does.

[Xiaobian]

[PM]

i personally think that wrong practice of Hung kyun is the reason of many bad knees and back problems. that is why we need to spent so much time on basics, especially stances, which are - correctly done - great both for the knees and back. i have never had any problems with knees, and even before i have started intensive strength training, my back was strong as hell - all because of hours and hours of stance training and the basics. especially double-ended staff is really cool for the hips and waist (well, we have 3 iron bars in my mou gwun, light, heavy and super heavy).

btw., incorrect hips movement, bad hip flexors or hamstrings are one of the main sources of the either knee and back problems - the problem shows up either one level up or one level down.

Paul Chek is cool, i have seen a loads of stuff he does and it makes sense, but to me it is too much health/rehab oriented. i am 33, a young guy, and ia must say i am in much better condition than 10 years ago. my answer for the back and knees problems is simple: squat and deadlift. learn it correctly, take your time. same goes for abs strengthening - i hardly do any special abs exercise

anyway, i know that you are a long time in a yoga/fitness circles, so i 100% understand the way you go, brother. health is number one priority, the older i am, the more i appreciate the health aspect.

all the best!
_________________
Pavel Macek

Lam Ga Hung Kyun 林家洪拳

www.lghk.org

[Asmo]

My left knee has been a pain in the *ss for a long time. Hundred or so sidekicks with my right leg in my teens a day topped off with going down an alp with a far too heavy backpack in my early twenties causing injury to top that off.

Every once in a while (month, 2 months) my knee would swell up, and I couldn't really bent it for a couple of days. Very annoying, as anyone with knee problems can tell you.

Only after doing proper Hung Kuen stance training (static sei ping ma for ~10 minutes) the knee problems went away. Before I practiced this about three times a week, once I reached holding the stance for 10 minutes I do it now once a week (which does more then just keeping, it becomes increasingly easier to stand the whole 10 minutes). I hear a lot of bad things about static stancetraining but for me I can only say it benefited me a lot...
But I can imagine if you do it wrong it might be very bad on your body (alignment of the knees, the spine, etc.), also afterwards you should stretch properly and exercise some more to loosen everything up again. Also, static stance training should not be your only stance training...

I know at Pavel's gwoon they stand for longer then 10 minutes, personally, I can do ggffk with rings and my legs dont get tired at all anymore, so I now prefer to put the time into soemthing different then further expanding beyond 10 minutes...

Just my personal experience with static stance training... ymmv
_________________
Pain is weakness leaving the body.
Don't mind me, whatever I think I know today might be entirely different tomorrow!

[PM]

no no, we train "just" 10 minutes every lesson; 3-4 times a year we test the maximum. according what i have learned, 5 minutes is minimum, between 10-30 minutes is an optimal training, more than 30 minutes is not necessary

another important thing is - jaat ma is just one side of the coin. too much emhasis on jaat ma is called sei ma, "dead stance". that is why we train both jaat ma and jau ma, ie. footwork. still i believe that jaat ma is one of the most important parts of the training, especially in the beginning and advanced phases.
_________________
Pavel Macek

Lam Ga Hung Kyun 林家洪拳

www.lghk.org

[Yogicmotion]

As to the question as why I see these common injuries in Hung gar player. I think it is combination of things. Improper training methods, heavy sparring and honestly a lack of flexibility and physical conditioning.

Remember this is combat art. no matter how good you are, if you are in a fight or sparring situation, you are going to get some kind of damage. It adds up over time.

For myself, I had stopped stretching enough and also had neglected my physical conditioning a bit. I was competing in a tournament and was not warmed up enough. I was doing the monkey stick and a landed wrong and just ripped apart my lower back.

It was quite humbling. I could not do ANY kung fu for nearly 2 years. Now I have to adjust how I practice to keep my back for straining again. I still practice my sets, I just really warm up well first.

[Chunyat]

I have some plyo integrated in the lessons.
In the (later part) of the warming-up or maybe better said when moved to the strechting and strength parth.

Firstly, I like running and then touching the floor and jump up (stretch the body).
Then when going to stretching (after some static strechting), some dynamic strechting of which parts might be seen as plyo: one leg is raised, then jump kick with the other one, while landing on the leg that was raised. So it's kind of leg raises with jumps.

Alternatively we don't run, but stay on a spot with the warm-up. Then many exercises, like jumping jacks, leg raise jumps (front leg goes out all the time and then touches the floor jumping in the same rythm as the back leg), horse stance frog jumps (not as deep as normal frog jumps, in order not to damage the kneews), squad jumps (after slow squads in the warming-up), switch front leg horse stance jumps.

Anyway, I got into plyo through strechting research.
Firstly through Tom Kurz's method, based on Eastern Europe research. Some of his exercises might be a little questionable for the knees though - you have to be careful not to bend the knees so much in e.g. squad lifts. Also his program is not so complete, so I started to search more.

In martial arts (stretching and strength training) there is Christophe Carrio:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&v=d81SyR-WUoA

And you wouldn't believe it, but on the home selling channel they finally have a product that works: P90X - it looks like a well built and researched work-out program. "Part 2 (plyometrics)" has many interesting plyo exercises, several I already used.
http://www.videofitness.com/reviews/horton-p90x-plyo.php
(just search google for P90X and downloads will show up)

Just for the arms I haven't found much yet (except push ups with clapping or throwing a 'medicine' ball).
What do you do there?

[Yogicmotion]

Chunyat,

The px90 is a pretty good. I found it a little boring after awhile. But I do use some of the exercise in my routine. I am actually try out the Insanity program for awhile.

I like it better so far. I can actually see taking parts of it and putting it in my warm up routine before my sets. It has a tons of plyo exercises.

I full heartedly agree with your comment of Kurz. His stuff is injury waiting to happen. It does deliver the goods, but I feel the price is too high.

[Chunyat]